There’s been some very interesting activity this month in the comments thread
about Summit Communications. Since I don’t expect anybody to plough through
more than 12,000 words of comments, I thought I’d summarise the discussion here.
And it really is a discussion: people pretty much are who they say they are.
I’ve got a list of their names and IP addresses after the jump if you don’t
believe me. The only time an IP address is repeated is when Marcos Melo, who
is an employee of Alvaro Llaryora, posts from the same IP address as Llaryora.
Which makes perfect sense.
Nearly all of the activity comes from employees or former employees of Summit
Communications or its sister companies. I’m not sure how or why they all seem
to have found my blog entry at the same time, but I assume there’s been some
emailing going on. In any case, the basic Summit Communications modus operandi
definitely emerges from the discussion.
It turns out that Summit Communications is a vehicle set up by a parent company
called AFA Press for the express purpose of selling advertising supplements
in the New York Times. AFA has other, similar companies for other publications:
the one for the Observer in the UK, for instance, is called Images, Words; the
one for USA Today is called United World; the one for the Daily Telegraph in
the UK is called PM Communications, and so on. The true center of operations
for all these companies is Madrid, although they’re mostly incorporated in the
UK.
The owner of all these companies is an Argentine called Alberto Llaryora –
the father of one of my commenters, Alvaro Llaryora. (In Argentine Spanish,
both "ll" and "y" are pronounced as "zh", so think
"zharzhora".)
Why does Llaryora have so many offshore companies, each with a very different
name? (Apart from any money-laundering he may or may not be doing, of course.)
The impression one gets from reading the comments is that it’s very simple:
the people working for these companies are so sleazy and unprofessional that
the governments and companies in the countries buying the advertorials are unlikely
to ever want to work with them a second time. So Llaryora simply sends a team
from a company with a name untarnished in that country instead.
And there’s another reason: the AFA sales team makes no effort whatsoever to
distingish themselves from the publication that they’re going to print the advertorial
in. The fact that each subsidiary works only for a single publication allows
them to say that they are "the exclusive partner of the New York Times"
or somesuch.
In fact, the sales technique at AFA seems to depend on their pretending to
be from the New York Times / USA Today / whoever. The AFA team always
includes a "journalist" who goes around attempting to get interviews
with senior officials and executives in the country, for a report on that country
to be published in the newspaper in question. Obviously, the fact that the report
will be an advertorial is not mentioned, and neither is the fact that the "journalist"
not an employee of, let alone a journalist for, the newspaper.
Similarly, when the advertorial is being sold, it is always sold on the basis
that the number of readers of the advertorial is the same as the number of readers
of the newspaper in question. Most advertisers who want a bound-out supplement
in the Sunday New York Times, say, are well aware that the vast majority of
readers will simply throw that supplement away unread. But AFA sales people
present themselves as selling advertising (little display units within the advertorials)
against New York Times / USA Today editorial with its enormous circulation and
readership numbers.
AFA seems to specialize in employing young, hungry sales people with no previous
experience in the media business. One of them phoned me after being given a
job offer, wanting to find out what I knew about the company; another left a
comment on my blog. The person I talked to had only sales experience well outside
the media industry, but was being offered a job as a "journalist":
writing skills, of course, were unimportant, as the only thing that matters
is making sales. These kids can make a lot of money by lying to advertisers,
and no one ever discourages them from doing so – quite the opposite. They
justify their actions by saying that they’re working in corrupt countries, and
that if you want to make money in such countries you have to be part of that
corrupt system.
Generally, it would seem, the male "journalist" will go through the
motions of interviewing the minister/executive in question; at the end of the
interview, a very pretty female "director" will then approach the
interviewee to buy some advertising against the interview. (Of course, if the
advertising isn’t bought, then the interview won’t appear, but that’s never
mentioned.) In the case of government ministers, the "director" will
ask the minister for a letter giving his "support" to the publication,
and encouraging the companies in that country to cooperate with the reporter.
The minister thinks he’s simply opening doors for the "reporter" to
be able to do his interviews, but of course the "director" helpfully
explains to the executives that in order to cooperate as the minister wants
them to do, they will have to buy advertising.
The technique works so well that former AFA employees have gone on to set up
their own companies doing exactly the same thing: see Vega Media, Impact Media,
and Media Plus, which seems to have an especially low reputation. There’s a
whole sector of these companies, it turns out: Global Press, for instance, run
by Alberto Llaryora’s brother Rodolfo Llaryora, would seem to have the Washington
Post and Fortune Magazine locked up. There certainly seems to be de facto
exclusivity: only one company ever seems to produce advertorials for any given
publication. Does Summit Communications pay the New York Times extra for being
its only advertorial provider? How else can one explain the seeming absence
of any competition in the NYT?
I’m sure that the New York Times, alongside all the other highly-regarded publications
in bed with AFA Press, spends as little time as possible asking about the genesis
of the advertorials which it prints. Just as the millions of people who eat
at McDonald’s really don’t want to know the details of how their meal is made.
This is the real difference between these publications, on the one hand, and
Euromoney, on the other: Euromoney, when it sells supplements, does so under
its own name, and in the knowledge that if the client is unhappy he’ll never
buy another one. The NYT et al don’t sell supplements, they leave that to others,
who are happier to burn their clients because they’ll likely never return to
that country anyway.
I’d be very interested to learn whether New York Times journalists working
in third-world countries ever find themselves battling ministers or executives
who think they’ve dealt with the New York Times in the past, and who have very
bad memories of the whole encounter. Maybe every time they do, they should complain
to the advertising department about the stuff which is being done in the NYT’s
name. That, in turn, might drive AFA Press and its subsidiaries to higher standards
of conduct.
More likely, an increase in the media-savvyness of third world ministers and
executives will force Llaryora and his employees to be more transparent; from
reading the comments on my original post, that might be happening already. Instead
of misleadingly selling an ad against an interview in the New York Times –
something which anybody who knows the NYT knows can never be done – AFA
might start talking more about the usefulness of newspaper supplements in terms
of turning around the image of a tarnished country. Chances are, of course,
that if the people buying into these supplements knew how effective they really
were, they would never take part. But at least some of the sleaziness in the
industry would be minimised.
Commenters and IP addresses after the jump.
| March 20 | Stefan Geens | 85.226.193.223 |
| March 20 | Lance Knobel | 71.249.17.70 |
| April 8 | Ray Corbis | 62.68.61.2 |
| June 1 | Thierry De Pins | 87.217.13.44 |
| July 6 | flimsy | 62.56.236.174 |
| July 7 | Mark | 80.25.234.40 |
| July 7 | Hugh Janus | 83.44.24.179 |
| July 7 | Veronica Fuentes | 83.35.204.167 |
| July 7 | Stefan Geens | 62.253.128.12 |
| July 7 | Renata (aka flimsy) | 62.56.236.174 |
| July 7 | Southampton’s Number 7 | 195.167.131.33 |
| July 7 | Stefan Geens | 62.253.128.12 |
| July 7 | Southampton’s Number 7 | 195.167.131.33 |
| July 7 | Stefan Geens | 62.253.128.12 |
| July 7 | bihboon | 81.192.191.75 |
| July 7 | Jorge Rosi | 83.34.209.175 |
| July 7 | G. | 69.194.13.47 |
| July 9 | Clemente Ordierez | 81.52.161.74 |
| July 10 | Alvaro Llaryora | 217.127.229.150 |
| July 10 | cause for concern | 86.140.215.182 |
| July 10 | Marcos Melo | 217.127.229.150 |
| July 12 | Valerie Favier | 83.202.97.233 |
| July 12 | Southampton’s Number 7 | 195.167.131.33 |
| July 12 | Marcos Melo | 217.127.229.150 |
| July 12 | Zeb | 195.172.183.10 |
| July 12 | valerie favier | 83.202.97.233 |
| July 12 | PomKa | 62.135.101.197 |
| July 12 | RAQUEL PICORNELL | 212.0.149.213 |
| July 13 | Benj (aka bihboon) | 196.217.242.241 |
| July 14 | Flavio G | 82.205.215.177 |
| July 14 | G | 69.194.13.54 |
| July 14 | Romeo | 200.31.172.4 |
| July 16 | Clemente Ordierez | 83.53.158.219 |
| July 17 | thermidor | 81.202.46.133 |
| July 19 | Moh | 196.200.83.51 |
| July 19 | Benj (aka bihboon) | 196.217.240.125 |
| July 19 | james | 86.1.67.234 |
| July 21 | jj | 212.80.189.229 |
Hey guys,
You have really put together a good pool of info. I couldn’t find anything about one of the companies in the industry.
Can you drop me a line with info about the company behind the below links, should you of course have any:
businessfocus.org.uk
http://www.globalbusiness.uk.com
http://www.ibns.uk.com
http://www.asapworldwide.net
if you have some comments to add I will appreciate it.
cheers,
jonathan
I worked for AFA for a year, and yes it’s often unethical, and also quite degrading – a bit like cold calling or door to door sales. Obviously there’s no editorial independence, but that’s the case with any advertorial so it shouldn’t come as a surprise. What is a surprise is the fact that high ranking politicians and successful businessmen can be talked into believing that spending US$100,000 for a 1 page ad in an advertorial is the best way to promote their country/company.
One of the worst aspcets of AFA itself though, that I haven’t seen mentioned here, is how and when they pay their employees the commissions that they are due. On your contract (if they’ve bothered to give you one) it will state that commissions are paid twice yearly, in August and January. When I left in December, most people still hadn’t been paid the commissions they were due in August. And as an employee there’s not a lot you can do about it. You stand no chance taking them to court because of the obsucre way the companies are set up. As mentioned elsewhere in this blog, if you do a search for any of the uk registered companies at companies house, they are all listed as having only one employee. And when you decide to leave the company, you can be owed tens of thousands of dollars in commissions that you stand no chance of ever seeing. In my experience, no one who has left the company will be paid their outstanding commissions.
People may seem very friendly and even quite genuine at the training, but remember the people conducting the training have themselves spent years on the field, perfecting those very skills. And with the dollar as low as it is now, it’s no longer so easy to find people who are willing to work for US$2000 a month, so they need to use all their charm and persuasive abilities to encourage people to accept the job. That includes suggesting to people that they will soon be earning substantial commissions.
For a lucky few, this is perhaps the case. But I would say that the majority of new employees will leave the company before earning any real commission at all. Especially now that they are delaying payments for so long. So if you’re thinking of taking a job with AFA Press, then just don’t expect too much from it. If like me you read this blog before the training, and having weighed things up still decide to give it a go, then at least you will have a very good idea of what to expect.
PG
http://www.veritemediagroup.com another one of those companies! Does anyone know anything about them?
Hi all,
Thanks a lot for all your posts and describing your experiences. First I was really interested in the job as Sales & Media Executive (which I initially saw as monster.es), but I got suspicious when I saw the exact same job ad at several other, similar firms.
It all sounded too nice to be true…. traveling all the time, meeting interesting people and making loads of money. And that for a graduate without work experience!
Thanks to you guys I have a better idea of the actual job and the firms’s activities. Although I haven’t been to an assesment day (they did invite me though) I now definitely won’t go. Really don’t want to be doing the job as explained in earlier posts.
By the way, I guess WINNE (world investment news) is also owned by our argentine friend Alvaro Llaryora? anyone knows?
Quite an interesting website.
I’m happy to have come across all these comments.
I recently graduated and have been torn between the type of industry and work that I would like to do. I have two friends that work in the industry and they have tried to sell me the job for quite sometime now. Fortunately I am a bit of a perfectionist so had to research well before getting the idea sold to me. However, I’m astonished at the level of conflicting opinions and “experiences”. At this very point I have a couple of perplexities:
1) In a day and age where we are surrounded by information and we all know exactly where the world stands, and how business is conducted, how can anyone be naive? My question to you all is, when looking for any job, isn’t the first and foremost commandment that of researching the position to which one applies thoroughly? I am sorry if I’m harsh in my belief that being young and naive is not really an option anymore, especially not for the majority of us that have easy access to information and are well educated.
2) For those that worked in these companies and have only negative comments about them, is there ANY industry in which sales is the driving force, where one would really say “it was all absolutely ethical and perfectly in standard with what’s acceptable”…but what is acceptable? It’s really all a relative term. “lying” to sell advertising is nothing less than “lying” to a person in a clothes store telling them they look good just to get them to buy the item. It all boils down to personal principles and choices. If one is really an ethical person, and really believes that they stand for their principles then they should pursue a carreer that involves that. Honestly i’ve worked in NGO and development for example. It’s no less of a lie. Yes we helped starving children, but to get the funding to do so we “lied”. Sold the project….So the bottom line is, whatever the industry, it really boils down to personal belief. We choose who we are, and what compromises we make. If people want to sue AFA press, then why not sue Coca cola? Let’s sue the UN to while at it because believe me they have LOTS TO BE SUED FOR…
3) A very big curiosity I have is in regards to the networks: Do people ever remain in contact with these prominent figures? Because my guess is, if one is quite sincere to begin with about the true nature of the business, trying to sell a bit of gold for a lot of gold and not for diamonds, will that not be appreciated by these personas? And if so, can anyone tell me if it is the case that they can provide a very good bridge for a future career? I’m not sure if traditional networking (as is in corporate world) works?
4) I’ve had the opportunity to work for a diverse set of industries, from Pure investment banking, to advertising, to development, to policy making (and no I haven’t quite found what I want yet…).
The point is, for those that condemn how trainees are slaved away, wherever have you heard of anyone in a starting position being treated with respect and having it easy? Please correct me, because in my experience, they’re all the same. Even in Investment Banking where one has the chance to work with people that shape the world economies, they do clerical jobs for the first year (save for the geniouses)
5) The only real concern I can see with the industry is that of legal matters. Healthcare, pension scheme, blah blah blah. But, whatever university a person has gone to, I trust we’ve been taught well enough to know not to sign a contract or accept a place without knowing things like this?…and at the end…a person can always quit. It’s a win win situation. It’s a bit hypocritical to accept the job and then question morality afterwards….if really we want to be moral and ethical, we should start straight from home. Working for X Corporation might be financially stable and “legal” but why not research how they conduct their business and if their “social corporate responsibility” is actually that responsible…
6) Job fairs and internet sites that advertise the company….again, they bring diversity on the plate. If a gradfair were to be ethical, you’d have 2 companies on the list. Because 90% of everything that is done in the world IS UNETHICAL. Immoral. and so on. and we all know it. It’s nobody’s fault but our own if we go for a job like that. And if I ever chose to work for Nestlé because of necessity, i’d have to come to terms with the fact that I am doing it because i’m too much of a coward to take the harder route, or too unconvenient for me to do so.
I could go on and on, but bottom line is: Don’t blame the company. If you really want to do good, do it first hand. And if you accept a job in a company that is bad, it’s only your own fault for sticking to it. Let’s stop blaming people and companies. it’s not elementary school anymore. the world is tough. And one has to pick sides. But it’s hypocritical to completely bash the other side, because nothing is black and white. The shades of grey truly run the scenario.
Hi everyone!!
Has anyone heard about WINNE? Are they a kind of this ‘dreams job company’ they introduce themselve…?!?
Im suppose to have an interview/training process in Spain too soon…
Any help will be more than grateful!
thanks
xo
Maja
Forget about Winne!! It is the worst of the worst!!!! the salary is bad and they don’t give you your commission!! And the report are the worst quality ever!!
Try impact!
I am a concerned Parent of a beautiful 25 yr old educated daughter who unfortunately has fallen in the same rut that many are experiencing in this economic downturn- limited job oportunities.
Of course she’s an adult and is entitled to make her own decisions. I’ve read the blogs and it appears that the majority of them are on the negative side. My daughter is currently living with us and is basically desperate to get out of the house and do something, even if it sounds shaky. I want to support her and not sound like the overprotective negative parent but lets be real-How dangerous is this job?
My daughters is a drama Queen-can someone please give me a honest heart felt story that will help her make up her mind to try this or run for the hills.
Concerned Father
Can someone please give me
Hello,
This month, I spent one week in Madrid training with AFA press. So far things look fine- I accept some of the shady sides of the business for the sales/travel experience.
My question: I was offered a job, but am still waiting for an assisgnment. Will I actually get a travel assignment? A contract? When?
Thanks!
hi,
i’ve recently been searching job boards and have seen repeated postings from these companies. out of curiosity, i decided to do some research which has landed me here…
i think i’m missing something so if someone could email me with the answer i’d appreciate it.
In a nutshell, the employees in the field interview the decision makers in the various countries and sell advertisements in the process (people stated above for 50K-100K). a report is then made and sold to a publication. i heard the sudan piece in the NYTimes a couple of months back was $929K…who’s making up the price difference between the money the gov’t paid the company and the fee paid to the NYTimes to run the ad? Or is this all a cover for other illegal activities in the process?
Thanks in advance.
semilvr (at) aol (dot) com
Semilvr,
Companies handling this type of business, buy a media pack to newspapers or secure a deal for a certain amount of money, let’s say 200K‚Ǩ, to insert a 10 pages (for example) advertorial in the paper’s edition on a certain day. There are two options: either the company handles the layout and the printing and have the whole delivered to the newspaper, or they pay extra money to get this done by the newspaper team. In both cases, the company must tailor its prices for ad spaces so as to make good profit on the overall project. In fact, just anybody could secure this kind of deal with newspapers, it is just a matter of how much money you actually have in your hands to keep the project going until it could end.
Hi all,
I am very concerned by this blog. I have applied for a position with vega media, but 2 weeks ago, I’ve been contacted by Impact-media.com, telling me me they were interested by my CV.
Now to got furtherly in the recruitment process, they ask me to email them a scanned copy of my passport.
When I asked why? The answer was a kind of mandatory reply:
”As part of our selection process we require to have a complete file of the people we are interested in recruiting, that includes a copy of the passport. This is because many times people have dual nationalities or a passport that requires a type of visa when they travel to a certain country.”
Now I am not sure this is legal or even normal. Since I havent been introduced to anyone and no interview yet, I believe the fact of telling them I am holding an EU passport should be enough???
Please can anyone advice me here?? Thank you.
Hi concern. Just tell them that you find it awkward to send a copy of your passport to people you’ve never met. Confirm them that you have one nationality only and that your passport is issued in the EU. Tell them that you would bring it for the first interview.
To Concerned father.
Let’s be honest: even if the activities of these companies are a bit blur, we can’t call this type of job “dangerous”. What I suggest is to subscribe a good health insurance before leaving to any country as these companies don’t usually include any in their package. For the rest, it will be her own experience. She shouldn’t expect too much though.
To concerned father:
I suggest her to apply to Oxford Business Group. They seem more serious than others. Also, and if she’s interested in sales jobs, she should have a look at Naseba website. They are involved in event organizations and are located in various countries. Seems to be a good company to work for.
Hi All, and thank you yeahbaby,
Concerning impact-media.com that were asking me a copy of my passport.
Since I asked for another way to deal with that (I proposed to bring my passport at the 1st interview);
they answered: ”If you refuse to provide us with the required information, I have to inform you that we won’t process your application any further”.
Can someone tell me if you had the same problem, and if that is a normal way to recruit people?
I don’t kno if I should provide them a scanned copy of my passport.
Help please
Much appreciated…
To Concern,
I have been interested in the same type of positions and I’m not sure how I would handle the passport question. I think the best thing you could (I would do this) is to call the Ministry of Internal Affairs, or police or any diplomatic service and ask them if it is OKEY to give your scanned passport to a potential employer. They deal with passports and security issues and they should be able to help you and advise you if this is a legal request from your potential employer.
Good luck
Susan
Hey guys,
I wanted to get more information on Media Plus. I got an interview with them and they were saying about barter service and about basically not being paid to live there, but to basically work for something.
Its not common in the west, but other places it is.
Im just wondering if its like that in AFA or anywhere else… it seems impossible.
And another thing is that you dont see your money in 6 months. Whats up with that? The buyer can back out quickly and then you wont get paid?
Another thing is that knowing that its 330 days a year…what happens?
What is you screw up? How do you get back to Belgium or if its worse to your country? I dont wanna end up in the Phillipines and having to pay 5000 USD to get out of there.
What about personal emergency? IS MP or anyone kind to that? Can they give you a flight back to your home if something occurs, god forbid?
Also, with the Hotel, since they barter it for you (against Advertisements) and car..how do you get to these places? Do they supplement the gas for you as well? Do they provide you with a GPS?
Someone mentioned security – so i dont wanna end up in a shady road somewhere, especially in Venezuela, with no directions and in the middle of gangs and crooks…
email me if you got some information: ajam1985@gmail.com
thanks!
Most expat jobs will give you an allowance for leaving friends, family and the comforts of home behind. They will also include flight tickets home (usually for each family member, twice a year), full insurance and a strong contract.
Media Plus and all other companies similar to it will not provide you with this sort of expat package. Just think of it this way… instead of selling advertising for your local newspaper, you will be doing the exact same job, for less wages, in a foreign land. That is the attraction to it — a junior level job with a ton of adventure attached to it.
They want to keep their costs as low as possible so the barter is a great way to do this. It’s also a great way for you to live a luxury lifestyle. On one of my projects I was given enough budget to cover a 2 star hotel — that was disgusting. After a couple of weeks we bartered a multi million dollar house with a chef and a cleaner. From the company perspective — we, as employee’s, were happy to be living this lifestyle and they were happy because it cost them nothing.
The same went for our barter car — instead of a crappy little car we bartered a very expensive sedan. Although we were getting paid very little and were living very far from home, we were living a lifestyle that was out of this world. And ALL companies would rather have you barter these essential living costs.
However — beware of all the pitfalls and you brought up a few key points: … You do not get paid unless the client pays… expect your commission cheques once every 6 months and don’t expect a ton of money — many buyers back out of the deal because they are sold on emotion and they do not have a chance to think before they sign… You will be away from home all year long … If you get fired or you quit they (all companies) will fly you back to head office but not to your home… if something tragic happens at home there is a very slim chance the company will pay for your flight home (unless you are a sales superstar)… they don’t trust you just as much as you won’t trust them (just wait until your first week of training when you lose all trust in what they told you during recruiting)
In most projects you drive yourself and figure your own way around the city. Good luck with that. There is no way they will spend extra money on a GPS for you (because you may keep it, and remember — they don’t trust you!). You may get a driver’s allowance in certain countries and when I was with AFA we had a driver. But with Media Plus — all on our own.
Chances are you may end up down a shady road or in a war torn country — but your manager will tell you that is all part of the experience and you should grow from it. They take advantage of fresh grads looking for an adventure. It is a delay of the reality of life while at the same time it will sour your impression of just how bad employers can be.
I can’t reiterate it enough — they won’t trust you and they won’t go the extra mile for you. You are totally replaceable and they will treat you like that. If you can live with this sort of treatment, then head off on the adventure. If you would rather be treated with respect and be paid what you are worth — just apply for expat jobs. There are tons out there.
Can’t agree more to what jalbacorp says about trust and the fact that you are replaceable. The atmosphere in the office tends to be disgusting and most sales people try to spend as less time in Belgium as possible (and not only because their office is in a shitty hole…). Meanwhile, finding a good expat job isn’t that easy.
Has anyone ever heard of WINNE? I was invited to their assessment centre in Madrid as well. It lasted 4 days, gotta say it was not that bad but some things seemed to be unclear. However, they indeed, enphasized about the sales part that is done by the girl. The journalist is a guy and a the country director is a woman too. WINNE agrees to pay for all expenses including food, house, car and even driver. What it does not include is the international insure becuase they hire you in terms of ‘freelance’ or autonomous person. Their media partners are for instance, the US News, Le Figaro, ABC Spain etc.
Can anyone give me feedback of this company? they selected me and before signing any ‘contract’ wanna make sure im making the right thing.
To Polska:
Just read the posts written above on the same page…
Do all AFA press staff use names different from their real names? Are they really required to do that?
Hey All,
WOW this has attracted a long, very long debate indeed. As someone who does work in this industry (for an excellent employer, who pays well, and provides health cover, and actually cares about the people in the field)- i feel rather compelled to share the positive side of the story.
I never usually comment on blogs, but this blog seems to require that I do.
Ok, firstly if you are not comfortable with a bit of adventure, and negotiating your way through a new country, learning to communicate with people who dont speak your language, meeting interesting people whom you would never ordinarily meet or experiencing foreign culture – then this is not the job for you.
Secondly, guys, sales is sales. I have been in a sales environment for some years. The previous company i worked for (now a global entity) was built by the founder who knocked on doors and slugged it out to gain clients. There is nothing wrong, or unethical, about selling or knocking on doors.
For those of you who think you are not (this one is for the blokes) remember the first time you got laid – i guarantee you did your best sales presentation that night. Point being, business is about selling – whatever it is. Some people will like your product, others will not. You are never going to please everyone.
Indeed the people that this industry sells to are top decision makers in their company. They have the business-nous to run a company, surely they have the brains to decide whether this is a deal they want to participate in, right?
And again, in every negotiation, someone sells and someone buys.
Whilst we are on advertising; many, in fact the worlds greatest brands consistenly engage in promotional branding every single day. Advertising is NOT always, agruably rarely, about a ROI.
So, there are a couple of general comments. I cannot say anything specific about AFA or the other companies mentioned as i do not know them personally. However, if anyone wishes to have further info from me, just ask.
Cheers,
Doc.
Hey Doc – if selling is selling… what’s wrong with boiler rooms? Those people use high pressure sales tactics to sell a product to people who do not necessarily want it – but are convinced otherwise.
There is no difference between international reports and shill stocks. Both use high pressure tactics (international reports even use pressure from Ministers to help with the sales arguments), Both have absolutely zero ROI (since when does an international report actually produce business) and the paper used in each transaction is worth less than the fish its used to wrap the next day.
You were right about one thing… it’s all about adventure. But don’t rationalize the selling. I’ve met with plenty of buyers (in my new career) who hate the international reports industry for what it is. Yes, they have bought – but they had no choice. To me, that’s not selling. That strong arm boiler room bs. There is no business sense involved whatsoever – so don’t pretend like there is. And when you get tired of selling in tinpot countries, then go and get a job at a boiler room in Bangkok. I hear that’s an adventure as well.
Doc, what is the name of your company?
Jalbacorp,
I think you somewhat miss my point. Advertising sales are something that happens the world over, every day of the year.
Where a company chooses to advertise is it’s own choice. I’m not sure what sales experience you have yourself, so I’ll reserve comment on that.
Every media, whether it be print, television, radio, internet – is paid for with advertising dollars. Or am I wrong about this? These features are no different. In fact, there are many companies who approach newspapers/ magazines directly to produce an advertorial for them. I’m sure you’ve seen them as well.
And as far as replaceability goes – tell me ONE company or ONE job in the WORLD where you are not performance based. (Oh, aside for governemnt/ council jobs). Every employee is replaceable if they are not helping the business – regardless of industry. That is the nature of capitalism.
I see you seem to have had bad experiences. I cannot say the same. I have sold (in my previous employment) business services to SME’s – throughout Australia and London.
I do not need to rationalise sales at all.
There is no doubt the selling IS emotional, both for buyer and seller. And I have no problem with the fact the is IS the one and only JOB of the seller to persuade and convince the buyer that this product is for them.
No salesperson ever goes into a meeting by telling the prospect that they are here to sell them something – none. People, myself included, naturally do not like salespeople.
How many people actually want to buy a new vacuum cleaner – not many. Why do you buy one?? The guy convinces you that it is a solution for your dirty carpets.
Advertising, as they say, is a necessary evil. No company really wants to have to spend away money on advertising. However, every large concern in the world does – true?
And don’t give me the bollocks that ‘they bought because they had no choice’. Accept buyers remorse for what it is, but do not tell me that they do not have a choice. If there is a fella who is capable of running a multi-million dollar company, who cannot say no to a deal that he does not want, then I wonder how he got where he is. Please.
Yeahbaby: Its Vegamedia.
Cheers,
Doc.
Jalbacorp,
I think you somewhat miss my point. Advertising sales are something that happens the world over, every day of the year.
Where a company chooses to advertise is it’s own choice. I’m not sure what sales experience you have yourself, so I’ll reserve comment on that.
Every media, whether it be print, television, radio, internet – is paid for with advertising dollars. Or am I wrong about this? These features are no different. In fact, there are many companies who approach newspapers/ magazines directly to produce an advertorial for them. I’m sure you’ve seen them as well.
And as far as replaceability goes – tell me ONE company or ONE job in the WORLD where you are not performance based. (Oh, aside for governemnt/ council jobs). Every employee is replaceable if they are not helping the business – regardless of industry. That is the nature of capitalism.
I see you seem to have had bad experiences. I cannot say the same. I have done deals (in my previous employment) on real estate, tractors, wine, all manner of goods and business services to SME’s – throughout Australia and London.
I do not need to rationalise sales at all.
There is no doubt the selling IS emotional, both for buyer and seller. And I have no problem with the fact the is IS the one and only JOB of the seller to persuade and convince the buyer that this product is for them.
No salesperson ever goes into a meeting by telling the prospect that they are here to sell them something – none. People, myself included, naturally do not like salespeople.
How many people actually want to buy a new vacuum cleaner – not many. Why do you buy one?? The guy convinces you that it is a solution for your dirty carpets.
Advertising, as they say, is a necessary evil. No company really wants to have to spend away money on advertising. However, every large concern in the world does – true?
And don’t give me the bollocks that ‘they bought because they had no choice’. Accept buyers remorse for what it is, but do not tell me that they do not have a choice. If there is a fella who is capable of running a multi-million dollar company, who cannot say no to a deal that he does not want, then I wonder how he got where he is. Please.
Yeahbaby: Its Vegamedia.
Cheers,
Doc.
Doc – no need to preach to the preacher. I am a career salesman and at the moment I sell advertising. So get off the high horse for a moment… I hardly think you want to be comparing resumes.
I also recognize the need that everybody is selling something. Whether or not its an accounting solution, a cool web design or an advertisement. But I can tell you this about a professional salesman (which you may not be judging by your words) – the prospect DOES know that the meeting is a sales meeting and the best salesmen in the world generally love other sales people or being sold to. There is nothing better to me than being sold something in a store. I believe that people love being sold to – they love the show. Real ad sales people will make their calls stating immediately that they want to offer them an opportunity to advertise. Then the pitching begins. So mate – you are way, way off. Why hide the fact you are selling? Are you ashamed?
I can tell you this without a shadow of hesitation – the special reports industry has a very bad reputation. How do I know? Well – I happen to sell ads to the same people that you burn. It often confuses me as to why they buy from people like you, but more often than not it is because they say they are forced to buy. I am not making that up… I am simply the messenger.
Take my words as you like. But the fact of the matter is this – if you have to hide behind many agency names, titles, etc – and your business does not depend on repeat sales (how many projects have you done where you go back to the same country and visit the same companies?) – then how on earth do you think that is a good sales tactic?
OK – selling vaccuums and things like this – people have a need for those items. The sales man doesn’t create a need. He does offer a great solution. But you don’t walk in to the vaccuum department unless you need a new vaccuum. You are a willing buyer who is probably comparing price and features. So that’s a pretty bad example mate, other than the fact that every company in the world is a willing buyer of advertising. But CEO’s don’t do the ad decisions – which is where your argument begins to fall on its face.
But as for any sale – repeat business is the name of the game. I’ve met so many burnt buyers in my current role that I honestly can’t see how you get repeat business. Also – the IMF even advises against special reports! Yes, do your homework and you will see that special reports are in the same boat as boiler rooms. So yeah, I got your point, you are in a shady industry and you are trying to justify it by saying a sale is a sale.
Don’t get me wrong – I enjoyed my time in the special reports industry and I learned a lot. But I hardly think its legit.
Let’s be very serious here – you use two tactics to get an ad sale. The first is through pressure (the minister said this, I am leaving tomorrow, your competitor wants the same page). This will create the urgency and the pressure to sign off. In a billion dollar company, a 100k sign off isn’t a lot but it’s still a pressured decision. (and please – get a grasp of what real money is to these people). The second tactic is the vanity publishing. But you misrepresent this by stating that so and so reads it, and you will get more business and be surrounded by specific content. Have you ever read a special report from cover to cover? Have you ever seen one when it comes out in the Independent or the NY Times? They are not that good looking and more often than not, they are jammed in with a bunch of other crap. Do you really think a CEO reads this? Please. Not when they pay thousands a month to license professional research. And do you think they base their purchasing decisions on one of these reports? HA!
The CEO of Timbuktu Trading in Niamey will pay so that he gets interviewed. Then he can show his friends that he was in the NY Times. (or supporting his government) Its complete vanity and its a complete misrepresentation. But perhaps he knows it – and is willing to waste his money on vanity publishing. But let’s face the facts – advertising sales is a cold, hard business based on figures and ROI. What special reports sales people do is build networks and create emotion and imagery. It’s a different game. Good luck to you and like I said – I enjoyed my time in the industry but I know what it is like, but I don’t agree with it.
The simple fact of the matter is that you misrepresent what you are selling, you use high pressure tactics to make a sale (most ad sales are done one year in advance, btw), and your parent companies create smoke and mirror agencies. Face the facts pal – boiler rooms and special reports are one in the same. Stay in for as long as you like – but recognize what you do for what it is. I could go back to the industry in a heart beat but I wont because I know I don’t want to use your selling tactics and I also don’t want to burn people. I’d rather have the same people you burn as my network and contacts, whom I can call on at a later date.
Hi Jalbacorp. Your work seems interesting and legit. I am also involved in sales, at high level. Do your job get you to travel extensively? Where are you based?
Yeah – I travel fairly frequently and am based in Zurich most of the time.
Radical discussion, both sides are pretty interesting. I was wondering if a kid from the United States has a chance landing the discussed position at AFA?
Best Regards,
Augustine
Hi all,
I have just read the article and all your comments. I am really surprised.
I have applied to a compagny called Global Consulting Group, which is in the same business. Does anyone know it? DO you have ome information or comments about how they work?
I will have an interview with them soon so I would make up my own mind. But I would be interested to get alternative opinions.
Thanks
I have made an error: the name of the company is Global Economic Consulting.
To AUGUSTINE: I’ve met three people who are working for Summit Communications. One of them is an American (female).
In fairness to them, they all seemed nice and well-educated. They also never forced us to buy an advertisement.
To AUGUSTINE: I’ve met three people who are working for Summit Communications. One of them is an American (female).
In fairness to them, they all seemed nice and well-educated. They also never forced us to buy an advertisement.
Hey,
I posted here before.
I am going to the January training at Media Plus in Belgium. I wanted to know:
If I go and I use the ticket to go to Europe instead of going to be trained at Belgium, what would happen in the worst case scenario.
They offered a round trip ticket, but its open.
So what does occur if I go and I’ll use the ticket to go to Belgium for the fun of it?
Would they cancel the other ticket? Would they do anything?
Or whats the worse case scenario? Would they ask me to repay it as ‘damages’? please respond
email: ajam1985@gmail.com
To Jamrurova,
They can cancel the return if they want to. They have full control on the tickets as they do not buy them but exchange them for free adverising, using the barter concept.
If you go to the training, get prepared to end up in the ass hole of Belgium, in a place called Lomel… there is basically nothing in there. Still there is a club or something looking like this near the house they host you and the girls are pretty open to foreigners since the rest of the year they are among dumb uneducated belgian twats. Can find good weed as well:)
AUGUSTINE: I am an American and I used to do this job. I’d say their main concern is that your passport allow you a lot of hassle-free travel: that means they’re primarily interested in folks from the USA, Canada, EU, Oz and a few others. On the job it’s a bizarre, visa-free zone, really. I look back and chuckle at how many questions I had about this in my interview, given how little it must’ve mattered to the employer. These companies are incorporated offshore and usually not registered wherever their offices are located. Work wherever they send you is usually done on a tourist visa, however that’s administered. It’s sometimes as easy as a stamp on arrival, sometimes a little more difficult, but nothing like trying to get a work permit.
Thank you for the response, but I havent heard back from either company I applied for. Oh well.
-Augustine
Hi Jamruvova ,
I worked with the company for a couple of years, the international sales environment is very though and not everybody has the stomach for it. Some people are very upset when they’re let go and it’s good there’s a website like this to ventilate their feelings.
My experience on the other hand was very valuable. I have a job as a sales manager in the Netherlands (in a publishing company) and it’s because of my experience in Media Plus.
To answer your question:
if you fly to Belgium they will take care of your housing and the training is very eductational. It’s intense and you learn quite a lot about international sales. Worst comes to worse they will fly you back, they have paid for all your expenses, they have paid for your trip and you have received a free of charge training.
If you go into the field, and after a couple of months they feel you are no longer a good investment, they will also fly you back and they’ll take a loss on you.
So technically you have nothing to lose. If you don’t live up to the expectations, they take a hit. They are a professional company, the training is very intense and they seem to have a sixth sense for party animals. If you’re only into partying, you won’t make it and you can spare yourself the effort.
I hope this can help you and wish you succes with your decision. just go for it.
Greetings, Tom.
I’ve worked with Media Plus (Thieu Cuypers) too, and had the luck to be personally trained by Thieu Cuypers, their CEO.
Their sales training and experience is great, and they are known in the industry for that.
My experience was that if they fly you somewhere they will also fly you back at their expense.
Thieu Cuypers (CEO) is very hands on and visited us twice in the field for extra coaching. The moment they feel you are not up to par they will communicate it.
Be prepared for a tough job and a hard life in the field. It ain’t easy but it’s worth it!
My advice is : learn all you can and be aware of the winers, they will try to bring you down.
It’s your own choice how you want to experience it.
Alan
Avoid the company Naseba, I worked there.They brainwash people exploiting them and it is some sort of sect!avoid it
send me email if you want more info
Hi Lucas, Im interested in knowing more about naseba –> where can i reach you?
Anyone have any experience or info about this company? …sounds all too familiar.
http://focusreports.net/index.htm
I’d be very interested in hearing about them.
-Focus Reports, 14 Rue du Conseil Général, CH 1205, Geneva, Switzerland
-Focus Communication, Rm 2104, Bldg #11 Jianwai SOHO No. 39 East 3rd Ring Road, Chaoyang District, Beijing, P.R. China
-Global Economic Consulting, 28 Rue des Petites Ecuries, 75010, Paris, France
Dear people,
I am an outsider and I am really interested in working for one of these companies. What I read here is indeed very naive. I was 22 when I first traveled to Africa with someone for business. The second time (I was still 22) I went all alone. There was no medical back up, no organisation to back me up or whatever. I just did it because I wanted to. I knew the risk in advance. This way, I have learned how to look at people. Who to trust and who not. You make contact with people that can protect or help you. I was held by the police for two hours for walking on the street, which was suspicious for a white guy and I learned how to talk myself out of it. My message is very simple: Traveling to a third world country always involves a risk. Think about it before you do it and carfully consider the risk.
What concerns the so called “scams” these companies use: I really don’t see the scam. They are selling advertising space like any other publicity agency that works for a big medium. They have found a very unique market, and that is something to envy. Maybe that’s the problem with you people…
My last suggestion: Take a job at the UN. If you are all so smart and highly educated, if you are all fighting for a better world, that seems like the best solution.
Anyway, thanks for the freedom of speech though.
Best regards,
David
Hm, David, I’m not sure you understand what people have written on this site. People appear to have complained mostly about the poor level of support — often less than promised — offered to them as employees of these firms, the perceived shoddiness of the final products and the occasional deceit involved in the sales procedure.
If people were people saying: “Boy Africa sure is tough, who knew that there wouldn’t be indoor plumbing in rural Congo?!”, then there might be a case for calling the folks here ‘naive’ and going on about how you managed on your own in Africa at 22, hot shot. But they aren’t. They’re writing about employers not delivering what appears to have been expected, to them and to the clients. You’re obviously proud of your Africa experience, but it cannot shed any light on the legitimacy, or not, of the complaints listed here.
Incidentally, thinking that the UN is actively fighting for ‘a better world’, whatever that might mean to you, seems pretty naive to me.
Has anyone worked for Vega Media or know anything about it? It is more legit than AFA or Media Plus Consulting???
Thanks
Has anyone worked for Vega Media or know anything about it? It is more legit than AFA or Media Plus Consulting???
Thanks
Yes, on what CL is asking. Is vega media legitimate? Their website seems very thourough and profession. Also, on the whole this profession seems exciting but comes with a bad reputation, even if the said company is reputable and ethical. Any thoughts